Plagiarism.
Ah I've been lifting things from others blogs again. Sorry to whoever I stole this from, (I can't even remember your name!!!) But I felt it something worth sharing.
“God would have us know that we must live as men who manage our lives without him. The God who is with us is the God who forsakes us (Mark 15:34). The God who lets us live in the world without the working hypothesis of God is the God before whom we stand continually. Before God and with God we live without God. God lets himself be pushed out of the world on to the cross. He is weak and powerless in the world, and that is precisely the way, the only way, in which he is with us and helps us. Matt 8:17 makes it quite clear that Christ helps us, not by virtue of his omnipotence, but by virtue of his weakness and suffering.”
("Letter to Eberhard Bethge", 16 July 1944, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison, pp.360-361
The God that is my God is crazy. I don't know how to make sense of him. Just when I think I've got it kind of figured out he's out of my box and gone, and I'm left holding a box thinking I've got God in it. Maybe thats how we often get so lost?... I looked at the stars last night and thought wow, I think the night sky is a bit like God, it's just too big to figure out and order and count, then I read Supermarket Monkeys latest addition and thought wow God is like those flowers you see growing in crazy places, then I read this quote and think wow, I'm back to square one with my understanding. It's kinda nice actually, slightly frustrating, but thats ok. It's nice to be confused.
posted by Josh and Melody @ 3:48 pm
22 comments
22 Comments:
WOW! Yes! That hasnt helped me at all, ( might have made things worse) but really spoke into my shit today.
I love this curly stuff that bends your mind into a pretzel.
I have to admit that right now I can't handle believing that God is how Bonhoeffer describes him.
It offers me little hope at all, because I'm an unfinished man and I need a present and almighty Father, not another absent dad.
I'm sorry guys for you to feel that way you do. But I kinda find this a little hopefull.
He's not a God who is going to come down monkey magic style and smack everyone out, and he's not up the front coaxing us up the front to be filled with the Spirit.
Instead he's bold enough to be broken with us, to walk beside us when our world has turned to shit.
May be I've interpreted it incorrectly, Maybe I've missed the point.
Grubb I don't know if he's absent. I think it sounds like absence, but I don't know if he really is absent.
What to you sounds like absence?
Reading it back again mate, Bonhoeffer stressed that in all of it he is with us, so he can't really be absent like I read it to be.
I think it's more me projecting absentness onto him - the classic thing of God inheriting the mess that was left by me not being fathered completely.
But having said that, living life and having to manage without God, and being forsaken by him are two concepts that I can't stomach - because that leaves me abandoned again...
I also want to stress I'm not disagreeing with your thoughts or your post or anything, just explaining how it impacts my issues.
Dude disagree if the mood takes you!
"But having said that, living life and having to manage without God, and being forsaken by him are two concepts that I can't stomach - because that leaves me abandoned again..."
Dude I know your past is far different to mine, to the point where they don't even compare. But managing without God and being forsaken by him also make me scared. I don't know if I exactly know what Bonhoeffer meant when he wrote that bit. It cuts counter to everything I hope God to be, but an interesting thought to ponder.
Something about this leaves me in a seemingly broken place as well, like instead of making me all high and mighty it humbles me. I don't quite know why? I don't even really know if I understand it yet.
You know the way home mate. I trust in you; your worthy of the fight.
I'm just gonna go with the theory at this point that Bonhoeffer was German and something was lost in translation!
No but seriously, it is good to be challenged in how you view God, and I can't claim that my picture is incredibly accurate.
But knowing that he will be broken WITH me is comforting at the moment because I'm pretty busted up.
Even knowing that he felt abandonment and deep soul anguish (on top of the physical pain) is kinda helpful - he knows how I feel.
I think the Church at large is scared of grappling with the idea that Gods power could be at its deepest in Godforsakeness. Nobody wants to be Godforsaken. Jesus WAS God forsaken. The poor ARE Godforsaken. exiles, ( a popular term in the Christian west, and one often attributed to how Australians feel) appear Godforsaken. Was bonhoffer spared or raised up for all his chivallry? No. He died the most ridiculous, absurd, meaninglessly cruel death imaginable. And we look up to saints like him for that, coz that kind of death is very Christ like.
Here's another thought just to throw in the melting pot - Isn't the hope that Jesus brings found in the fact that while he was broken for us, he also rose from the dead - just as we will rise from the dead in him.
Isn't the true power of Christ found in the resurrection?
Hey,
just some thoughts. The first verse that he refers to in saying that God forsakes us is Jesus on the cross - 'my God, my God, why have you forsaken me'. I don't believe we can relate that to ourselves in any way. The reason Christ went to the cross and died was so that we could have unity with God the father, so that he wouldn't look away and forsake us. Because of Jesus' resurrection and because we are covered by his blood we will never be forsaken by him.
I also can't see any weakness whatsoever in Jesus going to the cross, that is love, strength and God's power at it's fullest. That is true love and immense courage.
But then I absolutely agree with how you've taken it in your reply 'josh and melody' where you say he's not monkey magic and he is here sitting with us in our crap. Maybe that's the way to take what he's said...
These thoughts you've been bringing out are awesome, keep at it!!
I think this is a theological area that is pretty challenging for most of us. I may just be jumping all over it coz its appealing at the moment, but I think it resonates with something deeper. For me at least. I could be wrong.
I may be twisting it, but Ive read stuff elswhere that i find intriguing. Jesus willingly entered Godforsakeness. Could it be possible that Resurrection Hope is rooted in Godforsakeness? And to live a resurrected life, we must all die like Jesus did no? We delight to take up our cross, as long as we can bask in Psalm 23 and dont have to experience Psalm 22. The thoughts illucidated by anon are a long stading Christian Doctrine. IM not sure when that started. The early Church lived in resurrection hope, sure. But wasnt that aresult of entering some kind of Forsakenness? Did God stop the lions from tearing his saints apart in Rome? Doesnt that count as Godforsakeness? At least to the human mind.
Im not suggesting, anon that we are relating the suffering of Jesus on the cross to our own experience, but we are talking about following Jesus. And Jesus learned obedience by what he suffered.(Heb)
For mine, the world is pretty sick and tired of the positivist, triumphant, conceptual doctrine of Jesus Suffering in our place so we dont have to. It worked fifty years ago, but with abject suffering of sio many people around the globe now availbale for our viewing on you tube with the click of a mouse, its begining to ring a bit hollow dont you think? I am NOT disputing with what your saying, but merely pointing out what I see as another dimension to what you are saying.
I reckon the world really sits up and takes notice when christians are prepared to die( in what ever form that takes) for their faith praying the 22nd Psalm than when they try and convince them of the cozy kiddies by the fire love of God in the 23rd.( and why are those two so close together by the way?) There is room for both, of course, but the former is largely neglected in favour of the cozy kiddies by the fire place.
When Christians show more of a willingness to enter GOdforsakeness as a part of their discipleship, ( as did Paul, peter, most of the apostles, Bonhoffer, MArtin Luther KingJr, Ghandi, the Francicans and the carmelites.. and all the other clouds of wittnesses that have had a lasting impact on the world)The resurrection faith we proclaim, might begin to recover some of its credibility.
For some really good stuff along these lines you can go to a link in my sidebar called poser or prophet. If you dig into his archives a bit youll find quite a mind blowing manifesto on the topic.
love to hear whatcha all think.
Grubbman, I know its F***ing difficult man. Im good at talking but when the rubber hits the road, I want my daddy too. I guess that kind of proves Anons point, none of us are Jesus, but we can be like him.
hey yeah, I totally agree with you urbanmonk. I guess in my mind the word 'godforsakeness' is literally God doesn't care and has left us all to rot. I agree with your idea of godforsakeness though. I believe the suffering in the world is a direct result of our own sin and not that God has just left us.
I also don't agree with preaching a message of simple goodness and life's great when you know Jesus. I know suffering very well and believe that Jesus does not take that away (some he does although)but like josh and melody said, sits with us and takes the steps with us through the suffering.
I was talking last night with my dad about life in general and he said 'life is real', all of this is real - suffering, pain etc and its just the way it is. You can over spiritualise it, you can say that jesus will take it all away, you can say pray and get the 'demons' out. But the fact is - crap happens, life happens. Like all the people you suggested and so many now. And to be like Jesus, we are called to 'share in the sufferings of Christ'.
I love your last paragraph that when people see that we as christians are prepared to die - enter godforsakeness- then the ressurection faith we proclaim might begin to recover some of its credibility.
I think that is awesome and so needed, Great thoughts man!
Don't know whether any of that made sense but I hope you understand what I'm getting at:)
PS - His FAther is our Father too. So I guess in theory, we can follow Jesus into godforsakeness with a sure hope.
Wow again this seemingly negative little piece is RICH. Urbs my feeling is that you are on the money in your statement "I reckon the world really sits up and takes notice when Christians are prepared to die (in what ever form that takes)"
Many people I know (disciples of Jesus and not) are looking desperately for a reason to live, and the best they can do are human tradition and ideologies.
To stand with Jesus in the suffering and go to the point of putting your life secondary or death I know would make people sit up and say... "The wicka that I practice doesn't mention that, the religion I participate in doesn't preach that. Then others would say F**k that, I want to buy a thumpster and another carton of beer and few buds. Again, it would have a lasting effect on all.
Re-finding credibility will cost us, more than I think we realise. I think I am gain to take a shot at it. Thanks for the thoughts, I’m still chewing on them.
(If I could have one request could you Annon's at least put your name at the bottom of your thoughts. Just so a response can be linked to someone.)
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hey there new parents!
CONGRATULATIONS!!! heard you had your baby boy today. Bless you both stacks! enjoy family life.
emma
There are two parts:
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time has both, but the struggle is the fact that time is NOT QUITE.. heaven where we are with God. God sometimes hides.. we are often in time left to work things out without God.
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